This week we feature an interview with Peter Warren Singer, a US strategist and scholar on warfare and digital threats.
Our conversation starts with lessons from the conflict in Ukraine on how threats and adversarial tactics are evolving.
We also explore the continued use of social media as a weapon, and the nature of evolving threats to critical infrastructure and the motivations of state actors in our region such as China.
We also explore the idea of using fiction and narrative help organisations and leaders better understand the threat environment and communicate their stories.
This is an automatically generated transcript. We make our best efforts to check that it is an accurate reflection of the episode, but it may contain some errors and unedited content.
Welcome to This Week in Digital Trust, elevenM’s regular conversation about all things tech policy, privacy and cyber security. I’m Arj, joining you today from Awabakal country.
And today we have a special episode. We’re bringing you an interview with Peter.
Warren singer, who is a US strategist and scholar on Warfare and digital threats.
Peter and I had a great conversation and we covered a lot of ground, including lessons from the conflict in Ukraine on how threats and adversarial tactics are evolving and the continued use of social media as a weapon and its effects on both public democracy and stability, but also on private.
Interest. So with that, please enjoy our interview with Peter Warren Singer.
Peter Warren Singer, welcome to this week in Digital Trust.
00:00:57 Peter Warren Singer
Thanks so much for having me.
Love to just start by hearing a little bit more about what you’re up to sort of what are, what are your current projects and and?
Areas of focus.
00:01:05 Peter Warren Singer
I essentially wear three professional hats. First, I teach courses at Arizona State University. It’s the biggest public university in the United States, and they have a Masters programme in security studies.
00:01:20 Peter Warren Singer
And so this semester, we’re doing a class on cyber threats and trends. So something we talked further about that. It’s a lot of fun to build a course around.
00:01:31 Peter Warren Singer
Secondly, I work in an organisation called No America. It’s a nonprofit think tank and I do riding there on new technology and and primarily defence issues as well as help run an organisation called share the MIC and cyber, which is all about trying to bring more diversity.
00:01:51 Peter Warren Singer
The cyber security field and then.
00:01:53 Peter Warren Singer
The 3rd is a couple years back myself and a partner founded a business called useful.
00:02:00 Peter Warren Singer
And essentially what we do is we help organisations that range from private businesses to the US and Australian military wrestle with both strategic narrative and change management. What are the stories that we need to tell? How do we tell them better to whom?
00:02:20 Peter Warren Singer
And can we also build some skills along the way and so we can talk more about that, a lot of fun projects that of course have had some cyber relations as well.
You mentioned the sort of defence focus and I guess one of the features of your work across several of the domains seems about how do we understand.
Our war and conflict offers lessons for how we should be thinking about the threat environment, and I, you know, I read in some of your work that you talk about kind of this idea of wars as a laboratory for what we might see in the future. So I guess with that in mind, I mean, sadly, we continue to see the conflict in Ukraine after.
You know, Russia invaded in February 2020.
Two, what have you seen out of?
That conflict, what have.
We learned about how technology is being used and your cyber threats are being leveraged, you know, in.
An adversarial context.
00:03:13 Peter Warren Singer
One of the things that that happens in these wars is in some situations, there’s something that’s new that’s introduced that does.
00:03:23 Peter Warren Singer
Sent shape the full course of that war, but it gives you a taste of what’s to come. A good example of that would be in 1911 a Italian pilot flying a monoplane that went 45 mph. So around, you know, roughly.
00:03:43 Peter Warren Singer
At 60 kilometres per hour, he’s flying it over Ottoman Turk troops on his own. This is in 1911. He decides to take four hand grenades up with them and drop them out.
00:03:56 Peter Warren Singer
Of the side of the plane.
00:03:57 Peter Warren Singer
That certainly does not, you know, change the overall course of the war. But it does give you a little bit of a taste of what’s to come. Hold it. Aeroplanes, air power matters. And so I think we’ve got a number of examples of that that we’ve seen in Ukraine. One is on the cyber side.
00:04:18 Peter Warren Singer
Talks on the Internet of Things. We have seen it happen. Russia attempted to do it to, for example, satellite.
00:04:27 Peter Warren Singer
Ukrainian forces and volunteers swung back and, for example, hit electric car charging stations in Moscow. Much of it was sort of Willy nilly, not great intelligence preparation, both on the Russian and the Ukrainian side. It certainly didn’t, you know, shift the overall course of the war, but it indicates.
00:04:47 Peter Warren Singer
More and more to come and we’ve we’ve seen that even in the war itself where, you know, Russia went from doing it kind of haphazard to we’ve seen them try and connect.
00:04:57 Peter Warren Singer
There are missile strikes to strikes on communication network shutdowns. So again, what we’re seeing there is a shift from I’m trying to steal your information, your email or I’m trying to, you know, do a DDoS. I’m trying to block your information to know I’m trying to cause some physical changes out there, weaponization.
00:05:18 Peter Warren Singer
So we’re going to see more and.
00:05:19 Peter Warren Singer
More of that to come.
00:05:21 Peter Warren Singer
Another example that we’ve seen of a critical technology be introduced, but not, you know, affect the outcome, so to speak, of the war is artificial intelligence. We’ve seen it deployed and everything from helping to monitor and make more effective supply chains for the Ukrainians to using it to apply to the intelligence.
00:05:44 Peter Warren Singer
Game face recognition.
00:05:45 Peter Warren Singer
Action to perhaps most notable for cyber threats, we’ve seen both sides deploy deep fakes using AI to create incredibly realistic videos. For example, of leaders saying things that they didn’t actually say. Again on on both sides, the second type of.
00:06:06 Peter Warren Singer
Technology introduction that we see in history is where it’s it is important to the outcome.
00:06:14 Peter Warren Singer
And we’ve seen that in Ukraine as well, both in terms of drones, unmanned systems deployed in a in a major conventional conflict in a very significant manner with very big outcomes. But I think most notably, you know, much of it has been civilian in.
00:06:34 Peter Warren Singer
And then a second area is the weaponization of social media, which you know was happening all already all around. But we’ve seen it play a very crucial role. For example in, you know, bluntly, the Ukrainians, since Olinsky in particular able to mobilise, not just.
00:06:54 Peter Warren Singer
His own population, but much of the outside world, by controlling the narrative, flipping the script, so to speak on.
00:07:00 Peter Warren Singer
Russians. And that’s been just so crucial to the Ukrainians getting all of this outside aid, that that’s matter.
So those are.
00:07:09 Peter Warren Singer
Some of the major things that you know I’m looking at in Ukraine and pulling lessons from.
00:07:14 Peter Warren Singer
I think the.
00:07:15 Peter Warren Singer
Final one that’s interesting is less about the technology and who.
00:07:20 Peter Warren Singer
Owns the technology and that, of course, has been the reliance that the Ukrainians have had on civilian owned networks and technologies.
00:07:33 Peter Warren Singer
Both, obviously the Internet, but also on the satellite side, which has been you know great for them in certain ways and we think about, you know what they’ve gotten out of certain, you know, satellite networks like you know, Elon Musk controls. But there’s also potential downsides to that that they’ve had a taste of.
00:07:53 Peter Warren Singer
You know, at certain moments in the conflict.
00:07:55 Peter Warren Singer
But all of a sudden their gear stopped working when they crossed a certain geographic line, and literally Ukrainians died because of it. And it was because the company had basically, or the individual had changed, you know, the settings without letting the Ukrainians know about them, maybe in part because of, you know, it turned out that the owner of the company was having personal.
00:08:15 Peter Warren Singer
Discussions with Vladimir Putin, which caught you know, American military leaders by surprise. But then you also have, of course, you know, what does that mean in scenarios in the?
00:08:25 Peter Warren Singer
Specific where you know, can you rely on networks that are owned by a corporation or even an individual who in turn is in effect owned by China where you know much of their personal wealth is tied up in stock share prices that.
00:08:45 Peter Warren Singer
Tesla manufacturing and sales in China, and so the Chinese Government can put pressure on individual even, you know, billionaires or companies in a way that you know the Russians can’t. So don’t think that those private companies.
00:09:00 Peter Warren Singer
Are going to act in the same way that they did in Ukraine, maybe in a scenario in the Pacific.
I wanna pick up on a couple of the themes you just mentioned there. One is the resilience of critical infrastructure like you know in, in, in the example you gave kind of communication links and then the other being of China, both kind of topical things for Australia particularly over the.
Last few years, we’ve.
And a real sort of ratcheting up of focus on protecting our our critical infrastructure, some of our listeners might remember in 2020, our former Prime Minister held a national press conference to announce that there was a sophisticated state based actor targeting you know, all levels of government and other essential services and businesses and and you know.
That was both implicitly and later explicitly named as being China. And you know, this has been a real focus for us. So I’d like to kind of dive into that a bit more if you if you wouldn’t mind, which is, you know, how are you seeing that kind of?
Geopolitical context in the Asia Pacific.
And the capability of actors like China and how could that translate into activity in the cyber environment that’s relevant to you know, our businesses and our critical infrastructure operators?
00:10:11 Peter Warren Singer
It’s definitely become a monthly, almost a weekly occurrence that you’ll have reported some set of government leaders had their their email or their networks breached by, you know, Chinese link sources, CP link sources. But the second part is the beach head park entry into critical.
00:10:31 Peter Warren Singer
Infrastructure that’s more about having the potential to do something more when there’s a crisis or even a conflict.
00:10:39 Peter Warren Singer
Clicked and this has happened to even the most advanced networks. This for example was revealed to be playing out in U.S. military networks in Guam a couple weeks ago, and what was a little bit frustrating that, you know, people like me and I think you too was there was the US military surprised to find out that China was in the network but not planning to steal information.
00:11:00 Peter Warren Singer
But potentially planning, you know, a network shutdown if there was a war. It was like, yeah, you know, why are you surprised by this? And you know someone who literally wrote a book about it? I was like, come on, guys, I mean.
00:11:10 Peter Warren Singer
But again, that’s not just military networks. That’s other parts of critical infrastructure. I think the second issue to pay attention to in the critical infrastructure discourse is too much of the focus on a limited set of areas. The power grid is the, you know, the the classic narrative. What would happen if they turned the power off.
00:11:32 Peter Warren Singer
Big, big problem, obviously enough.
00:11:34 Peter Warren Singer
But critical infrastructure is much, much more than that. We’ve seen entry points into everything from water systems to, you know, you name it. When you think about critical on structure, it can’t just be about the power grid. And that’s something that is an area I think a lot of governments need to step up their game.
00:11:55 Peter Warren Singer
The regulators on the government side pay attention more to other issues, so like water, it’s been a discourse around pollution and that’s what the regulators tend to focus on. It’s like, OK, that’s important. Don’t stop that. But you also have to pay attention to these other cyber threats. And then in turn.
00:12:15 Peter Warren Singer
The entities that are being regulated, they’re going through that same discourse that we saw in financial or power where their initial reaction to anything is, you know, don’t tell me what to do. And then we have. OK, OK, we’ll, we’ll we’ll create optimal standards which you know the best ones will meet and the.
00:12:35 Peter Warren Singer
The other ones won’t.
00:12:37 Peter Warren Singer
And then we get to the next set. You know, there’s some kind of failure, and then we go, OK, OK, that was not enough. Voluntary standards. Not enough we need.
00:12:46 Peter Warren Singer
To do more.
00:12:47 Peter Warren Singer
To incentivize, you know, through carrots and sticks, companies or agencies to raise their game and we we’re seeing that play out sector by sector.
Some of what you’re saying.
There is what we’ve seen here. So we’ve seen as part of that wave of new legislation around security of critical infrastructure. We’ve seen an expansion of.
The number of what we define as critical infrastructure sectors from you know, the basic 4, you know the grid and and the ports and and so forth out to 11 sectors, which includes everything from transport, you know food and grocery, healthcare and so forth. I guess one of the challenges we’re seeing is that a a large number of those sectors.
Some of those ones that maybe have not been traditionally regulated around sort of security and cyber, they’re sort of coming to terms with this and and going through exactly what you’re talking about.
I I’d love to turn to the information landscape. You kind of mentioned it earlier. You’ve written a book, obviously with Emerson T Brooking called like War, the weaponization of social media. And you talked about how that’s been playing out in the in, in the conflict in Ukraine.
I would say that landscape, you know, five years on from liquor has been quite eventful. I mean we’ve seen a lot of.
Disinformation and misinformation, you know, you know, sort of COVID and, you know, the 2020 US election, of course. And and then, you know, the conflict in Ukraine five years on from writing like or how material are the effects of this kind of disinformation, not just on, you know, the public sphere and democracy, but even just individual business interests. I mean, I’d love for our audience.
Who many of.
Whom are kind of from large organisations to kind of contemplate it in terms of how it might affect their businesses direct.
00:14:36 Peter Warren Singer
Yeah. So the the notion of like war was that if you think of cyber war as the hacking of networks like war is, it’s it’s evil twin. It’s the hacking of people on the networks, not by entering into their systems, but through their own shares, through their own likes.
00:14:56 Peter Warren Singer
And thus driving information viral, much like in regular cyber war cyber security.
00:15:05 Peter Warren Singer
That has real world consequences, so you know, just like stealing an email or credit card information or to our previous discussion of, you know, causing some kind of system shutdown, the network activity matters. The same thing on the social media side, driving information viral.
00:15:24 Peter Warren Singer
Matters and we of course have seen that in examples that range.
00:15:29 Peter Warren Singer
From you know it can be positives. The Ice bucket challenge, if people remember that too, it can be negatives. Isis copied many of the same elements of the ice bucket challenge to help drive its message viral and convince people to.
00:15:50 Peter Warren Singer
Join the organisation and even carry out Oxy.
00:15:52 Peter Warren Singer
Terror we’ve seen, obviously, the effect of social media on elections all around the world, again depending on who you like or don’t like, for better or for worse. But definitely it’s changed. You know, the types of leaders that have arisen to the even the outcomes of elections. It’s also offered an opportunity.
00:16:13 Peter Warren Singer
For authoritarian states to reach into democracy.
00:16:17 Peter Warren Singer
And affect their discussion. So it’s it’s a kind of a different sort of censorship where by shifting the conversation in an outside power, you’re you’re not blocking it the way you can control your own nations dialogue. But you are changing what people in that other state are talking and thinking about. And that, of course is, you know.
00:16:36 Peter Warren Singer
Famously hit the United States in the 2016 election to, you know, we’ve seen examples.
00:16:42 Peter Warren Singer
That in Asia Pacific, including attempts to interfere with Australia’s democracy, so it matters. It also, of course, matters for corporations because of this shift in technology, there’s more information being collected in the open source realm.
00:17:03 Peter Warren Singer
Than ever before in human history, that gives you the potential of pulling in insights like never before. Insights about what?
00:17:13 Peter Warren Singer
Your adversaries are doing what’s happening in your environment, what your customers are doing, and thinking what your own organisation is doing and thinking. And of course, we see that applied to everything from how to understand rapid trends in business. You know what are not just what are my customers saying, but what are my customers thinking?
00:17:34 Peter Warren Singer
And this neighbourhood, rather than that neighbourhood, literally down to that, that level, you know, not maybe a geographic or of this. You know this type of customer to this individual cuz.
00:17:45 Peter Warren Singer
Humour and of course, this orders of magnitude more information. We’re turning back to a prior topic AI to.
00:17:53 Peter Warren Singer
Help us sift.
00:17:54 Peter Warren Singer
Through it and we see that from you know how it’s being applied into the Ukraine conflict. Literally right now, as you and I talk, the Ukrainian military openly says.
00:18:05 Peter Warren Singer
They’re making use of approximately 10,000 different tidbits of this kind of open source.
00:18:12 Peter Warren Singer
Provided by civilians and other social media 10,000 a day, and they’re not merely using it for overall strategy. You know what are the Russians up to? Where should I move my soldiers? They’re using it for, like, pinpoint. I should drone strike this cannon at this geographic location. This one.
00:18:33 Peter Warren Singer
Cannon. And so you can obviously think of the.
00:18:36 Peter Warren Singer
On the side.
00:18:37 Peter Warren Singer
The flip of this.
00:18:38 Peter Warren Singer
Is just because you have more information out there, doesn’t mean it’s all true, and that’s the, you know, the darker side of like war. And of course, we’ve seen that affect elections. We’ve seen that effect, the discourse around the.
00:18:56 Peter Warren Singer
Pandemic, we’ve seen it affect not just elections, but politics. I’m an American. We had a violent insurrection on January 6th that left six people dead. Still reverberate today and it was driven by, you know, online conspiracy theories that were consistently debunked. And yet.
00:19:17 Peter Warren Singer
So you know, as you’ve been talking, you know, throughout this conversation, it’s clear that, you know, this is such a dynamic landscape and there’s a constant shift in, you know, the the nature of the threats and the intentions of the actors and and it there does seem to be this kind of futuristic element as well, where you’re trying to sort of anticipate how actors might.
Combining all of these threats, I mean, you sort of gave the example there of, you know, potentially kind of using AI in conjunction with social media.
So I’d love to kind of talk a little bit more about, you know, useful fiction. It seems like a a great tool to help people and organisations wrap their minds around the the way these threats might combine. Could you tell us a little bit more about the sort of inspiration for that, what it’s all about, how it’s kind of actually playing out for organisations that use it?
00:20:06 Peter Warren Singer
Certainly. So the core idea is that when we have so much new going on around us, whether it is new technologies, new threats, shifts in the economy, security culture, you name it.
00:20:24 Peter Warren Singer
One of the most effective tools for both understanding it and sharing with others about it is the oldest communication technology of all, which is story. We’ve been using story to convey complex ideas. You know, going back to when we were sitting around.
00:20:44 Peter Warren Singer
Paves by contrast PowerPoint you know, PowerPoint’s a little over 30 years old. So you know our brains are literally tailored around the idea of.
00:20:56 Peter Warren Singer
Sorry. And you know while we we like to be serious or engineering minded, the hard reality and and business and even politics is that it’s emotion that that drives action. It’s something that you know, both politicians and used car salesman know. And So what useful fiction is is that it.
00:21:16 Peter Warren Singer
Tries to leverage that it takes the non fiction, whether it’s a a research paper or a strategy paper or a trend report. Whatever it is that’s important for that organise.
00:21:27 Peter Warren Singer
Station and shares it through a combination with narrative, with story, with scenario, and so that’s the notion behind a useful fiction and so effectively what we do is 3 things, and it’s primarily been for government. We’ve done a little bit.
00:21:47 Peter Warren Singer
For business and governments arranged from the US.
00:21:51 Peter Warren Singer
The Brits, Canadians as well as a little bit for the Australian military. One is they’ll have some kind of important product. Again, a strategy paper, a white paper, something that’s important and we’ll take that and turn it into a scenario and original artwork as a way of.
00:22:10 Peter Warren Singer
Of conveying it and you know we’ve done it on topics. We’ve done it on cyber topics, we’ve done it, done it on defence topics again for business and government with these leader retreats or even tabletop exercises, a lot goes into a lot of money goes into them and yet only the.
00:22:28 Peter Warren Singer
People in the room get the fruits.
00:22:29 Peter Warren Singer
Of it, and they’ll say, Oh yeah, but we rode a conference report or we wrote an after action report, you know? Yeah. How many people actually read that? And so we’ll turn that into a story, a narrative, a fake document. And then the third thing that we do is we organise conferences and workshops that teach people how.
00:22:50 Peter Warren Singer
To bring the tools of narrative to their own organisations, they need to be very clear. Narrative doesn’t mean only fiction only made up stories. It means, you know, sharing the information in the form of a story.
00:23:03 Peter Warren Singer
There was that one time that I was working on X or here’s a scenario of how and why our product matters or a flip of the cybersecurity side. Why do you need to pay attention to this threat? Well, here’s how it might hit us, and so we’ll work with organisations.
00:23:24 Peter Warren Singer
On bluntly, you know, how do they better tell their story? And it’s been a lot.
00:23:29 Peter Warren Singer
Fun we’ll bring in, you know, everything from former military leaders to best selling authors to Hollywood writers and. And, you know, they’ll share their tricks of the trade, and then we’ll apply it to the problems for that organisation and. And then what’s really cool.
00:23:50 Peter Warren Singer
Because you get these, you know, whether they.
00:23:52 Peter Warren Singer
Army colonels to execs who have never done narrative before, and by the end of it, they’re building narratives that hit their their organisations needs and in a couple of cases, they’ve actually even gotten published.
I I wonder if you could kind of give me a little bit more little on two things. One is you mentioned sort of you been doing this for senators for example. So has this kind?
Of translated into.
Public policy or legislative outcomes that you’ve seen and the other is.
Is there a difference between the outcomes you might get doing this for businesses versus governments?
00:24:25 Peter Warren Singer
So I’ll give you 2 cyber examples. In the United States, we had something called the Cyber Solarium Commission, and it was a Commission of from our our Congress and it was notable in that it actually.
00:24:41 Peter Warren Singer
Had members of both our police.
00:24:43 Peter Warren Singer
And essentially they had a massive effort to help reset US cyber strategy and what they feared would happen is that their major report, their call for a new strategy would have the same fate that, for example, these commissions.
00:25:03 Peter Warren Singer
Had on like issues like terrorism and they’re ignored and then you know 911 happens and then everyone goes well, why didn’t we listen to them? And So what they asked us to do is that we wrote the executive summary of their repo.
00:25:20 Peter Warren Singer
Court but the executive summary that we did so it took all the key issues but.
00:25:25 Peter Warren Singer
Reframed them into a short story, and the short story shared the key elements, but it added in some emotion by portraying a world of what would happen if you don’t listen to this report. It was specifically tailored to the audience that they most wanted.
00:25:46 Peter Warren Singer
To affect which actually was the staffers of our Congress, because they’re the ones that actually write the legislation, it’s basically tailored to hit a young staffer both cognitively. What do I need to know if I’m not gonna read this whole 100 page report? But also, why should I act? What?
00:26:07 Peter Warren Singer
Should I do and so the main character of the story is a young staffer and it’s sort of, you know, don’t live out the nightmare scenario of this person fictionally. That’s why you need to take action now.
00:26:19 Peter Warren Singer
It’s a young staff for having to write legislation in the wake of a cyber catastrophe, with the idea. This is why you should write the legislation now and it proved to be very, very effective, the Commission chairman, you know, credited it with helping them out and and the solarium.
00:26:39 Peter Warren Singer
Which was very different than most of these, and that a huge amount of legislation actually passed.
00:26:44 Peter Warren Singer
The corporate version of this was we did a project where a chief Information Security Officer basically had reached a point where and I think a lot of people may be.
00:26:55 Peter Warren Singer
In this situation.
00:26:56 Peter Warren Singer
Where he felt like his leadership, the CEO’s and the board had stopped listening that there had been so many warnings of cyber threats and This is why you.
00:27:06 Peter Warren Singer
Need to invest?
00:27:07 Peter Warren Singer
That they were kind of, you know, had become numb to it. And in particular, there was a cloud migration that was going to happen for this major company.
00:27:16 Peter Warren Singer
And he wanted them to, hey, you need to pay attention to the cyber side. And So what we did for them is we took the key elements that he wanted them to understand about the cyber risks of the cloud migration, sexy that that’s really exciting. But no, I mean, you know, again, we turned it into a scenario where the story is.
00:27:36 Peter Warren Singer
From the perspective of a CEO writing in the back of a commercial.
00:27:42 Peter Warren Singer
Right, aweek, after a ransomware hit on the company and they’ve been called to testify in in U.S. Congress. So they’ve been called to testify in the Parliament, and they’re ruminating about, you know, how did I get here? And so they’re both ruminating about the the steps that they didn’t take the very easy.
00:28:02 Peter Warren Singer
Steps. They didn’t take that could have avoided this situation so.
00:28:05 Peter Warren Singer
That that she so wanted the the people to know and the real world. But secondly, we’ve added in that emotion because and again you’ll have to let me know whether this is the same in Australia. But basically the key was that among the most you know senior folks, the CEO is the board members their fear.
00:28:25 Peter Warren Singer
It’s not just, you know, oh, we there might be a ransomware hit on my company, a fear that really hits them is.
00:28:32 Peter Warren Singer
I might be in a position where other people are making me do things that I don’t want to do. I might have to go testify and they’re going to be asking me questions rather than me giving a speech or even the physical side of it in the United States, all the CEO’s, when they go testify to Congress, they don’t fly their private jets.
00:28:53 Peter Warren Singer
They have to fly on commercial flights for the optics of.
00:28:57 Peter Warren Singer
So even that he’s sitting in a plane that he doesn’t want to be in. And so the idea was to share this, you know, not just what needs to know, but why do you wanna act? It’s not just the hit to your company, it’s that there’s gonna be a bunch of questions asked. There’s gonna be things that you have to do that you personally don’t wanna go through. So that’s why.
00:29:17 Peter Warren Singer
You take this effort and so again, that’s the examples of connecting real world issues with the tool of narrative to create a kind of either aware.
00:29:31 Peter Warren Singer
This and or action that might not happen if you just dumped the facts on people or you just gave them the PowerPoint briefing.
I love the personalization of it because I think you know it’s it rings true. I think for a lot of our executives and you.
Know you know.
The Heads of security that they’ve gotten past that initial awareness, but they’re trying to continue and sustain that conversation and and they’re also trying to shift kind of consciousness of different executives below that initial sort of.
Trying to, you know, gain traction across their businesses and the idea of personalising what something means for you know, a particular business executive of a particular division. You know is it seems to me like something that would be really valuable before we kind of wrap. I mean, how do people find out more about your work useless.
Fiction and and and the other.
Things that you do.
00:30:23 Peter Warren Singer
On useful fiction.
00:30:24 Peter Warren Singer
It’s useful-fiction.com again, that’s useful, dash.
00:30:29 Peter Warren Singer
Fiction.com happy get engaged.
00:30:31 Peter Warren Singer
With folks that.
00:30:32 Peter Warren Singer
Might see a need for their organisation for my personal and academic writing that’s at pwsinger.com. And of course the you know the books are.
00:30:43 Peter Warren Singer
On all the.
00:30:43 Peter Warren Singer
The different online places that people can buy them, so again, you know, excited to reconnect with you and talk about all the issues that we didn’t solve years back that are still with us. But you know it shows the the challenge of this space.
Yeah, and it makes some more conversations to come, so that that’ll be great, we’ll.
Put all those links.
In the in the show notes, so do check them out. Peter Warren singer. Thank you very much for joining us and thanks for your.
00:31:11 Peter Warren Singer
Time. Alright. Thank you. Take care.